Anti-Wrap Front and Rear

Well I definitely need a solution for both. I looked around Pirate briefly and found a few things. The rear is easy, I'm looking at making one like Sam's Offroad. I have plenty of room opposite the muffler to set it up. It's a "ladder" type bar with two hardmounts at the axle and a shackle at the skidplate.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billav...r/Dcp_2131.jpg
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billav...ntiwrapbar.htm

The front is a different story. Because of the shackle reversal, a ladder type would have to attach by shackle to the front. My tie rod is behind the axle, so that's a plus. But I still have the diff on one side, the winch in the middle, and the steering box on the other site. I have enough space on the axle tube to mount it outside of my springs, but my wheels already hit my spring when I turn so the frame end would have to be mounted to somewhere between the springs.

If I'm going to use a ladder type for the front, that leaves me with a shackle hanging down, which I don't want. I did find a couple of possibilities.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/albums/stge...4_tech/afr.jpg

Question: Do these actually work? I saw that several people have them, but I'm not convinved that this wouldn't A. limit articulation or B. eliminate wrap. And with the trivetrain components that I have, I need something that totally eliminates the wrapping stress on the springs, not just limits it.

This was a totally different type if setup.
http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/bamb...71608_new3.jpg
http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/bambar/


I'd have to look to see if I even have the space for this, but it's an interesting option.

Any other ideas?

Look for High5 on por...I'm almost positive he has one on this front axle and its a SR too. I know I have it saved somewhere, I'll look this afternoon after my test :rolleyes:

The Jeepaholics guys seem to have good success with the Bambar, from what I've heard them talking about it.

that bar looks like it would bind badly if the geometry wasn't exactly perfect. That's why everybody runs a shackle at the frame end these days.
look here: http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/4R_suspe...l#Update-part2
for ideas on anti-wrap leaves like the allpro packs have. I have been running something similar in the back and it worked well, but I have some more kinked leaves so maybe I didn't get it quite right...

the billavista one is good except the lower link should extend all the way to the front joint, like andy's does. just look at andy's and copy it. shorten the top if you want like we talked about. the jeepaholics one will limit travel and cause the pinion to pitch downward when drooped. not a good idea to take ideas from jeep guys.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by uglyota

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/4R_suspe...l#Update-part2

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That guy is pretty smart. He's the one that built my steel shims for the front. I like the shock idea. I had a similar one drawn up for my 4Runner but it never got that extreme (plus longer shocks came out in time). Anyway, I have two concerns with that setup:

1. It doesn't seem like it would help when backing up, just when going forward.
2. It seems as though it would need to be a pretty stout leaf on there because of the amount of leverage I put on it. A thick leaf on top would be very bad for droop (which is all I have in the way of flex).


John, a couple of things:

1. Why do both arms have to go all the way to the end? I realize that it has to be something strong to prevent from bending (either permanently or just temporarily under load), but besides that is there any other reasoning to have them both run all the way to the shackle end?

As a side note, I was thinking that they needed to be heims or something similarly hard mounted at all ends. But after looking around, a lot of the designs use rubber bushings at several places which I would think would give it as much or more play under load than the deflection of a single shaft (like in the Billavista design).

2. If that's the case on the Jeepsaholic one, then if I used it on my front (with shackle reversal) it should actually move the pinion UP, not down down as it droops. Right?

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Originally Posted by davido

That guy is pretty smart. He's the one that built my steel shims for the front. I like the shock idea. I had a similar one drawn up for my 4Runner but it never got that extreme (plus longer shocks came out in time). Anyway, I have two concerns with that setup:

1. It doesn't seem like it would help when backing up, just when going forward.
2. It seems as though it would need to be a pretty stout leaf on there because of the amount of leverage I put on it. A thick leaf on top would be very bad for droop (which is all I have in the way of flex).

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are you talking about this pic?

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri.../Fsprings3.jpg


that an anti-wrap spring only. the shock is a steering stabilizer. it would help a little but i think you want a bar set-up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by davido

John, a couple of things:

1. Why do both arms have to go all the way to the end? I realize that it has to be something strong to prevent from bending (either permanently or just temporarily under load), but besides that is there any other reasoning to have them both run all the way to the shackle end?

As a side note, I was thinking that they needed to be heims or something similarly hard mounted at all ends. But after looking around, a lot of the designs use rubber bushings at several places which I would think would give it as much or more play under load than the deflection of a single shaft (like in the Billavista design).

2. If that's the case on the Jeepsaholic one, then if I used it on my front (with shackle reversal) it should actually move the pinion UP, not down down as it droops. Right?

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the links need to go all the way so that they experience only tension and compression stress.that one sees a lot of bending. ill draw a picture. the yellow is bending, the red and blue are tension and compression stresses. the lower one should go below the centerline of the axle tube at least a little.


the jeepaholics one is an all around bad idea. if you put a shackle on the frame side it would work like its supposed to though.

so it would work that way, you are just skeered it would break where yellow meets red and blue? I like that bar because it gets the lower link up out of the way quicker than if it went all the way to the shackle. Otherwise, you would have a bar equal or lower than the driveshaft closer to the breakover point. It is usually a miracle my rear driveshaft makes it through an event as it is.

it doesnt have to be that long and im skeered it'll bend in the middle where its yellow and keep your axle wrapped all the time.

andy, post a pic of yours

Quote:

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Originally Posted by agjohn02

the links need to go all the way so that they experience only tension and compression stress.that one sees a lot of bending. ill draw a picture. the yellow is bending, the red and blue are tension and compression stresses. the lower one should go below the centerline of the axle tube at least a little.

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I must first say that I'm not an engineer, but it seems like as long at they're between 90 - 180 degrees apart, it wouldn't matter where they were on the axle. This is assuming the arm also controls it as a fixed distance between the two eyes where it connects to the axle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by agjohn02

the jeepaholics one is an all around bad idea. if you put a shackle on the frame side it would work like its supposed to though.

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This also doesn't seem to make sense to me. If a shackle was on there, it wouldn't have a fixed point to pull and push from. It loses it's leverage and is pointless. Seems that if it has a shackle at the end, it would also need to be fixed from rotating at the axle. So either welded or attached at two locations on the axle.

I couldn't find a pic of High5's but here is one that he was talking about that his is like. You've seen his rig and how well it works. Simple and effective.

http://www.texasoffroad.net/albums/m..._019.sized.jpg

This is the same design as Andy's:

http://www.sams4x4store.com/images/specia1.jpg

http://www.sams4x4store.com/specialt...Traction%20Bar

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Originally Posted by TxCruzr

I couldn't find a pic of High5's but here is one that he was talking about that his is like. You've seen his rig and how well it works. Simple and effective.

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Yes, he's all about KISS which I like. The one you posted is sans shackle reversal. Great design. Pretty much what I'm thiking for the rear, but unfortuntately mine would have to go forward from the axle and I haven't yet found a convenient mounting point or shackle position (more details in original post).

Keep the feedback coming though. This is helping. I'm just playing devil's advocate on some of it to expand on ideas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by davido

I must first say that I'm not an engineer, but it seems like as long at they're between 90 - 180 degrees apart, it wouldn't matter where they were on the axle. This is assuming the arm also controls it as a fixed distance between the two eyes where it connects to the axle.

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if the lower point isnt below the axle centerline, it wont work like its suposed to...

i.e.- 1) if its inline between the frame side of the link and the axle centerline, it will do absolutely nothing and the upper link will carry all the load.
2) if its above the centerline, then both the links will experience the same stress (tension or compression) at the same time. this will leave the leaf springs to carry the reaction (opposing) force, causing them to load up, putting you right back where you were.

the picture joseph posted is a good one for you. the upper link isnt too high and wont interfer with your fuel cell if you move it and the heims will keep it from limiting flex like bushings would.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by davido

This also doesn't seem to make sense to me. If a shackle was on there, it wouldn't have a fixed point to pull and push from. It loses it's leverage and is pointless. Seems that if it has a shackle at the end, it would also need to be fixed from rotating at the axle. So either welded or attached at two locations on the axle.

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now that ive sat down and looked at it, your right. like i said first, its an all around bad idea.